Interesting Juxtaposition

Does a comment even need to be made?

Well yes, the juxtaposition of the two photos is quite malicious in its intent. It happens to be demeaning toward what is known to be a celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

Most inapropriate.

– R.Zacher

Are you kidding me? This is absolutely appropriate. Consult the GIRM, the Orens posture is allowed, not this “sending” gesture. What was the recessional, the Horst Wessel song?

Andrew,
Totally hilarious!

BMP

“What a nice Roman salute. I must write him a thank you note.”– Alessandra Mussolini on seeing a photo of Paolo diCanio saluting the Lazio irreducibili.

Opposite hands.

StubbleSpark,
the Berlin picture has to be inverted, the greeting was done with the right arm

and doing this is legally forbidden in Germany, so they better keep that in California

Like in “Blazing Saddles”?

As a conservative Catholic, I’ve never liked the Religious Education Congress in Southern California for its over-the-top liberality.

But in fairness to them – The way you put these two pictures together is plain nasty. You should be ashamed of yourself.

What they were doing at the congress is a “laying-on of hands” or a communal blessing by the congress, either on Cardinal Mahony (shown on TV screen) – or on someone else that the Cardinal must have requested the crowd to bless. Such a blessing is usually done outside of the liturgy. (Note that the Cardinal is not wearing a chasuble.)

It is a benign group blessing, not a Nazi salute. You have a dirty mind.

Marie, the cardinal IS wearing a chasuble since this “sending” is taking place *within* Mass.

Blessings done by the congregation are most certainly NOT part of the liturgy. Improvisation within the Mass is inappropriate as well, R.Zacher.

Andrew is juxtaposing a most ridiculous thing happening at a liturgy presided by Mahoney and attended by a group of people apparently too dense to realize the historical significance of that gesture with… well, with a photo of the actual gesture they are oblivious to.

How this juxtaposition bespeaks a “dirty mind” is beyond me.

“Nasty”? Well, perhaps ‘naughty’ would be the better adjective, together with a wink and a grin.

Sorry, these self-styled Mahoneyian ‘Catholics’ deserve all the ribbing they get.

… And this is not the Orans position, and the GIRM does not allow the laity to do the Orans at Mass. In fact, I’ve seen elsewhere that certain gestures allowed the celebrant are NOT to be done by the congregation.

It’s a bit of sardonic humour folks, not a serious piece of relgiopolitical commentary!

Pat, thanks for the correction my comment should have read (brain lock moment)

“the orans posture is not allowed nor is this sending gesture.”

That’s what I get for trying to type a response and deal with a 19 month old daughter who is cutting teeth at the same time.

I want to make it crystal clear that I am not a fan of the Orans posture, the sieg heil sending blessing, or hand holding during the Pater Noster.

Andrew,
I’m going to have to second Marie’s statement.

In the guidelines for the Confirmation mass in the diocese of Great Falls-Billings (Montana, that great bastion of American liberalism) it is written:

11. For the imposition of hands, the Bishop will invite others to share in the imposition of hands.

http://www.dioceseofgfb.org/
Outreach_team/Confirmation%20Guidelines.htm

I know about this because my daughter was just confirmed. Our bishop (who is both holy and orthodox) invited us to join him in extending our right hands over the confirmation candidates.

Had you took a picture of my parish and juxtaposed it with the Nazis (with no commentary as to what the mass was or why they were doing it) I’d have to say that my thoughts toward you would be less than charitable.

How about re-thinking leaving this post up?

In either case, it is an interesting thing to notice how similar holy and evil things can appear to untrained eyes.

Whether or not the faithful are allowed to extend their hands in blessing isn’t the point nor how liberal California Catholicism can be.

Make the Nazi picture color and take out the TV screen showing the Cardinal- then ask people to describe what they see in both pictures.

I can’t say I would post the same post on my site, but equally, I wouldn’t suggest you remove it.

Peace.

I’ve seen people give this gesture during the Credo – it’s some kind of charismatic thing, and not rightly an imposition of hands – who would be imposing hands on whom? It looks like what it looks like. I don’t know how many times I’ve thought to myself, you know, it looks like they’re giving the Nazi salute. It would appear I’m not the only one who’s had this thought.

Very funny!
How can I donate to Glock Aid 2005?

Just an FYI, I was there. Cardinal Mahony asked young men feeling called to the priesthood to stand up and he prayed over them. He asked us to extend our hands and pray for them as well.

RL,
I ask this in all seriousness, how many young men stood? L.A. seems to have issues when it comes to generating vocations and I’m curious to know if there was a response to his request.

This is not intended as a slam on LA, (I have a very kind friend from that Archdiocese) but in answer to your question:
I recall that last year, LA ordained 5 men, 3 of whom were not wearing a Roman collar in their press release photo!
The Archdiocese of Chicago ordained 19 men last year, if I recall correctly. Granted, the A of C is huge, but not nearly the size of the A of LA, the largest in the nation.
My parish has ordained three men in the last two years to the SSJC, housed there. (These are not diocesan priests, so their numbers are in addition to the 19 others.)
We have 4 in seminary. Looks like 4 more will be entering next fall.
19 men are in formation.
I have also visited the website of the orthodox St. Agnes in MN. They have several young men from the parish in seminary.
The Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist, which is a newly formed order, cannot keep up with the scores of young women wanting to become nuns. (And wear habits. And attend Adoration. And serve the Lord.)
There are now officially two ‘vocations crises’, in my opinion. Places like LA are barren, and places like SSJC, FSSP, ICK, and Mary Mother of the Eucharist are having trouble figuring out where to put all of their young postulants and novices.
If only I’d hit the lottery.
:)

Cathy,
Perhaps it’s time to buy back all, (or at least some), of those monasteries and convents we sold off to other religious denominations back in the late sixties and early seventies.

Must I play host to this disputation? I warmly invite all those involved in such discussions to continue them in private correspondence with one another.

Personally, I find it all rather tedious.

Sorry!
Didn’t mean to bore you.
It won’t happen again.

Anthony,
There were a handful of young men (100) who stood up. It was a bit dark in there, so it was hard to tell. I’m actually not from LA but am aware of their vocation’s situation. Someone had told me that the cardinal had asked for prayers for vocations from Nov. 2005 to Nov. 2006. Let’s join them in prayer!

Highly amusing, but I think anyone looking for something profound in the juxtaposition is a fathead.

I just have to respond to the vocations issue: I live in the Mpls.-St. Paul archdiocese, and while St. Agnes forms many young men and women, our overall number of ordinations last spring was 16…and not all of them were from St. Agnes. Our number was second only to Chicago, and geography-wise, our city is dwarfed by Chicago.

As far as the photos go, how ’bout some context? Was this actually during the consecration (it doesn’t appear to be), or was it only a blessing? If this posture happens during the consecration, it is to be condemned as the laity do not have the authority to concelebrate.

If it’s a blessing, I just shrug and move on.

There are bigger fish to fry in the world of liturgical abuse.

The scary thing is that the USCCB is meeting in LA in June (in about six days) and one of the hotbutton topics is going to be the ICEL translation of the Roman Missal. Let us all pray that perhaps Mahoney will soon be replaced. I always thought California was weird. I never realized how absurd the situation was until I saw the picture. My only consolation is that Pope Benedict will soon release his Post-Synodal document on the liturgy.

By the way, for those of you who are offended with the juxtaposition, remember, the abuses that are occuring in our liturgy are truly heinous. Even Benedict, himself, in his book, the Spirit of the Liturgy, laments that we are only celebrating ourselves when we start tinkering around with the Mass. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is about rendering perfect worship to the Father, through the Son with the Holy Spirit. It is not about celebrating ourselves. Furthermore, neither the Paul VI missal nor the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal make any reference to the laity imposing their hands. This novelty is a misdirected one, as is the hand-holding that the charismatics introduced when reciting the Pater Noster. Furthermore, Benedict has told the Ecclesial movements (charismatics and neocatechumens alike) that they must adhere to the Successor of St. Peter, no ifs ands or buts.

Re the “orans” posture :
There is no mention of it in the GIRM but there is an instruction that the posture of those attending mass be uniform.
The Deacon at mass is not allowed to assume the orans posture.
Historically the posture has been strictly a sacerdotal privilege.
It is my judgment that for the laity to assume this posture is a pharisaic ostentation. But, then, in charity, onw e shoyuldn’t be judgmental. Should one?

Mesmerism.
Bonding with the masses.
Basic Crowd Control.
I want to see comparative photos of the buffet at the after-party.